Weapons (Home Defense)

[dead0man]

So I've made the wife paranoid enough that she has accepted the fact that we need a firearm or two in the home. More for a "when chit breaks" down than a straight home defense of burglers/axe murders kind of thing. So I was thinking of a short barrel shotgun for overall defense of the home, but not somewhere all that accesable (we do have a small children) and locked up. And possibly a hand gun or small rifle for personal defense when going out and getting food/fuel/supplies ...."when chit breaks down".

So, I'm thinking, a more than single shot shotgun and good overall, dependable, inexpensive hand gun. I've always liked the 1911's. Would something else be better for self defense outside the conforts of my own home? Just looking for overall advice here, feel free to ramble as well. I know you're all gun nuts (I'm not a nut...well not about guns), so I come to you for advice.

Thanks in advance.


edit-this isn't just for the 7.62 guys. Anybody that wants to chime in, feel free.

[TimberWolf762]

Shotgun pros:
Very intimidating
Very effective
Very versatile – can hunt birds and deer-sized animals both
Easier to aim a shotgun/rifle than a pistol

Shotgun cons:
Heavy
Forceful recoil
Bulky ammo
Less maneuverable indoors than a pistol

I have a Remington 11-87 12 gauge Police Special and it is heavy and recoil with slugs or buckshot is heavy. But even a .410 shotgun is more effective than a .357 Magnum:

www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/shotshell/slugs.htm


.410 slug = 654 ft/lbs energy, vs a .357 mag (410 to 610 ft/lbs)

www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/pr/results.asp?cal=5


So you might want to consider an automatic .410. Remington does offer an 11-87 in .410, I think. A pump-action is probably a little too complicated for those who aren’t going to practice with it much.

Another neat idea is the Marlin Camp Carbine. No longer made, of course, but it was a small, light rifle in .45 caliber, the same that pistols use. It even used the M1911 Colt magazines, so you could have a pistol and rifle that used the same ammo and magazines. You’d have to find a used one.

Going up in power is the Ruger Mini-14 and Mini-30. These are either .223 or Soviet 7.62x39 ammo. The rifles are small and lightweight and do not recoil much. You can get magazines from 5 to 40 rounds (maybe more). Bad thing is that those rounds can go through walls and into the neighbor’s house with ease.

[TimberWolf762]

(Continuation)

So a .410 shotgun and Mini-14 might be a good combination. If you want a pistol, I am a 1911 .45 fan. However, if your wife is going to shoot it, too, you might want to go to a 9mm. I have a Browning Hi-Power that is nice because it doesn’t have all of the levers that all of the newer pistols nowadays do. (Did you know there are 3 ways to drop the slide on a Beretta M92? Why do you need three?) . The Browning is simple to operate and holds 13 rounds (I have a couple of 20-round magazines, too, lol) so you can launch a few bullets downrange before having to reload. Recoil is much less than a .45.

Another word on the home-rifle thought. With the expiration of the firearms ban, cheap SKS and AK-type rifles will be back on the market. They are simple to operate, fairly light, offer good stopping power, cheap ammo, and low recoil. They can look pretty intimidating, too! bloodysteel.com/762/pix_ak1.html

That’s all I have for now, but please feel free to ask questions.

[mpsrt]

As far as pistols go, I'm an auto man myself, but if some one that is not used to operation a semiauto is gona be in the need of using a pistol for self defense a revolver is also acceptable.

.357 or even a .38 spc is good enough for some one not used to firing one. I carry a .40 S&W Heckler & Koch USP. Not cheap. Another problem with a semi auto: cost.

The 11-87 is a very good weapon as is Rem. 870. Its the pump gun in BHD and what most police carry for quality and cheapness.

[dead0man]

Thanks guys. Keep it coming

Price is important here as I'm not made of money (Kitty wishes!). Also, I've never owned a gun before, what type of maintenance am I looking at. Other than a visit or two to a range or field a year, how often will I be needing to oil/clean them? I'd guess there is a lot less maint. on shotguns than there is on rifles and hand guns?

What makes a pump action more complicated to use? The mini-14 seems like it would fit the bill pretty good, how much we talking about there? Looking for guns on the internet seems to suck (especially at work).

[TimberWolf762]

Hopefully, you can make it to the range more often than that.

One thing about buying guns is if you know what you want, you can usually find someone that will order it for you at 10% over cost. Look in the paper and see if anyone advertises that. That could save a few hundred $ right there.

But – anyone, correct me if I am wrong here - a new Mini-14 or Mini-30 will be about $600. If you can get it at 10% over cost, it may be more like $400 or $450 plus tax. The prices of AK-type rifles may soon be more like $400 retail when people start importing them again – maybe $300 at 10% over.

Ammunition you can get at roughly $100 per 1,000 rounds. I buy it in 1,000-round lots, and usually have 8 or 10,000 rounds on hand at any given time. You can buy it in a box of 20 or 50, too, lol.

Maintenance – clean it when you fire it. Other than that, wipe the dust and fingerprints off occasionally. Maintenance on all is about the same. Shotguns are sometimes harder to clean (I think) because the powder is slower-burning and leaves more junk in the action.

A pump shotgun is more complicated because you have to remember to rack the slide to fire again, and you can jam it if you don’t pull the slide back all the way or run it forward all the way.

Mpsrt mentioned revolvers, which is a good point. Basically, you load them and just pull the trigger to fire. No safety levers or anything to remember. I have a couple of Taurus .357 Magnums that I got for about $350 each at 10% over cost – maybe less, it’s been a few years.

[dead0man]

I see this is going to be an expensive hobby

I got a co-worker who I plan on going through to get the guns. Or at least point me in the right direction. I've heard many gun stores have places you can go to play with the guns before you buy, I'll need to take the wifey for that. I'm not going to want anything she is afraid to fire. I was also thinking about a cheap .22 (or something else small) to help accustom the older kids to firing weapons as I didn't have that luxury as a kid. I was 18 before I shot my first real gun and I've never had regular access to anything.

I guess an M16 derevative (I can never remember the name of the civilian equivalent) is way out of my price range?

[Semtex]

Consider bullet penetration with whatever you choose.

In a 12 ga. #4 buck is about as big as I would go if I was using it for home defense indoors. Larger than that and it will still have power to kill as it goes through the next room which may have other family members in it.

In a handgun I am partial to the 45 acp in a 1911. There are some lightweight HP rounds as well as Glaser ammo with low penetration that might be worth a look at. I also like the 10mm and the 9X23 but think the 45 acp is a better round for home defense. Less muzzle flash and less penetration with the right ammo.

Rifle I spent a little time in Arizona at Cooper`s place in the early/mid 90s. One guy in a class touched off his 7.62 in his motel room. The bullet went through 9 rooms before it stopped. I don`t keep a rifle in my home loaded for the purpose of home defense. I have several but it wouldn`t be what I would grab if I heard someone moving around the house at night.

[TimberWolf762]

M16 types are generally called AR-15 (rifle) or CAR-15 (carbine – shorter barrel and mayne a collapsible stock). Depends on the manufacturer. Prices are going to be higher, figure $800 to $1200. Here is one site:

www.rockriverarms.com/subcats.cfm?Category=01&storeid=1


A .22 is a great idea. I guess the most popular .22 rifle in the US is the Ruger 10/22. Retail for a standard one is about $150, and ammo is dirt cheap. It is an automatic, and will give you and the wife and kids some experience using an automatic. (It can be confusing to switch from a pump to an auto to a bolt action – you have to think “what do I have to do to make this one fire?”).

As Semtex said, rifle bullets can penetrate many walls. The .410 shotgun we were talking about earlier would be safer in this regard.

[ice]

As money IS an issue, I'd recommend the following:

Mossberg 12 Gauge (think it's called the defender), short barrel, extended magazine, and load it with birdshot. Anything more than that will, I repeat WILL penetrate your walls, and hit someone or something you aren't shooting at. You can pick up a Mossberg for under 3 bills. You can also buy longer barrel (26/28 inch) to bird hunt with, if you ever want to later.

I too am a fan of the Remington 870 and the auto's 1100/1187, but the Mossberg will be cheaper, and it will do the job, and fit your requirements. I personally prefer the Benelli, but it's out of your price range (950-1200).

Simple revolver (S&W probably best choice) in .357. Can load with .38 Special for inexpensive practice, no frills (load it, and pull the trigger). Pick up a used revolver, which is really all you'll need for a couple a hundred at almost any gun store. Teach yourself and the wife to shoot with wadcutters, and then shoot a couple of cylinders of hot loads so you know the difference.

I'd strongly recommend that you leave the semi auto pistols to those of us who carry them every day, especially the single action variety (Browning Hi-Power's and 1911's). If you find that you like shooting, then you can graduate up to the pistolero's favorites, leaving the wife with a revolver and shotgun she's comfortable with.

Also recommend that you keep your pistol loaded, but in one of the small pistol safes (around a hundred dollars) that you can access in seconds by pushing a few buttons, but that children can't get to.

Shotgun can be loaded quickly if need be, but a handgun, in a stressful situation, needs to be ready to go. It's also alot easier to manuver with in your home. Also recommend that you include a good quality flashlight (Surefire is my choice), and keep it with your handgun. Don't want to be turning on lights when sneaking up on the as**ole that's intent on doing you harm.

As for when the balloon goes up, I'd recommend the following as a basic survival kit:

1 Scoped rifle (270 and up) for game gathering.
2. 22 Rifle (my favorite is the Ruger 10-22) for small game & birds.
3. Assault Rifle: Ruger Mini-14 (here in MS priced around $350), or the Colt AR-15 ($850 or so).

Lots of ammo for all. All of this, along with your shotgun & you could last for quite some time.

Unless of course some of us were hungry and needed your food If this were to happen, you'd probably want to try negotiating.

Good luck,

ICE

[dead0man]

Good stuff, good stuff. Thanks guys.

I can buy the shotguns and 22s at Wallmart....should I? Or should I give my money to the guys that need it more, the local small gun shop owner?

..and being from the "heart land", food shouldn't be to much of a problem. Plenty of beef, pork, deer, corn and wheat around here. Sure I'll probably miss good apples and banana's and what not, but we won't starve. I feel sorry for the schmucks that live in NE, when the spit hits the fan, there is going to be a lot of hungry mouths up that way.

[ice]

I personally hate Walmart for what they are doing to small town America, and only shop there when the "mom & pop's" don't have what I need, and I'm to impaitent to wait on UPS!!

I like supporting the little guy whenever I can, and usually their prices are only little higher than the mega-giants like Walmart. You get a lot better service, and usually someone who shares your interest in firearms, and usually some knowledge and experience on the subject. Walmart gives you the bored college kid, or senior citizen working to make ends meet.

Again the shotgun & .22's are relatively inexpensive, and the ammo is too. You'll also have the opportunity to shop used guns in a gun store, and a used gun in good shape will serve your home protection needs just fine.

Sounds like you live in an area that will sustain life for a good long time, should "sugar turn to sh*t". You mention the poor ba&tards in the NE; I feel sorry for the people that will find themselves trying to escape from the large cities.

The predators will consume them first, before trying hardened targets like us. They better have their ear plugs in when they come after the 7.62 squad, cause there is gonna be a lot of loud noise!

Good hunting,

ICE

[sig 7.62]

Us poor Bastards in New England have Deer,Moose ,Bear,rabbit and fish. We have very large Dairy Farms and we grow potatoes,corn and most other vegetables.Apples are way too plentiful and our peaches and plums are just dandy.And guns are one of our favorite things.

So dont you worry about us NE people,We are hardened by the cold winters and the humidity in the summer.We love our New england heritage and we will kick anybody's ass that F**ks with us.

ps Ya'll got the accent,not us!! LOL Sig

[Nailer 7.62]

I got in on this one too late. All the guys have really good advice here, I agree with all I read. Here's a great place to do a little shopping:http://www.gunbroker.com/

[ice]

Sig,

You are killing me man!!! Your point is well made, except for the slam on the accent. We speak proper english, ya'll are the ones with the accent. But we can share a foxhole, that's for sure. You bring the bear, we'll bring the beer!!!

ICE